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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 1:17:23 GMT -5
so, people commonly wonder why russian has so few words, but in the end you barely need fancy words like: arrive, depart, come, go, ascend, descend, emerge, leave -- it's often just due to the prefixes.
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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 1:21:35 GMT -5
also, most-everything can be converted from one part of speech to another. If you have an arbitrary noun it's really easy to make it a verb or an adjective or an adverb or add aspects or whatever you want. It's very easy to create arbitrary words in Russian, which have a quite obvious meaning but are not in dictionaries, especially if you use obscure aspects, prefixes, and suffixes.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Sept 19, 2018 2:04:41 GMT -5
"Do you consider Lezhi to be a finished language?" Wow, good question. I would say that if I were to leave it in its current state then yeah it's good. I only left it mainly due to being lazy and not wanting to fix some of the perceived issues. Regardless of said issues, I believe it has all sorts of stuff in it that would make it pretty self-sufficient.
"[...] you consider shifts in grammar when translating to be indicative of a loss in meaning." Eh, not necessarily. I should know because I still understood you perfectly despite perceived grammar mishaps. It's similar to saying "I have three apple". While the lack of pluralization sounds weird, the same message has been imparted. There's a "right" way to say things basically. But I will admit, I realized that I had a bit of a stronghold on things at times. This is really the first time I've done a huge conlanging project like with others interacting so bear that I have made mistakes. But now I know better. I'll keep what you said in mind. I learned to let go and not strangle things and let things blossom. This is why I like Kisska better now. It was built with this in mind and it was built with others in mind.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Sept 19, 2018 2:15:09 GMT -5
Oh wow, yeah, Russian deviation sorta fits Kisska. I actually knew the Russian language tends to do stuff like this but I never looked into in full. What a nice fit for Kisska. I will definitely be looking more into this.
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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 10:31:18 GMT -5
well, maybe you should have a stronghold, but within that stronghold, allow for creativity and free choices to be made -- so i mean, have guidelines for engineering future creativity, so that if you later abandon or overlook something, it can be generally agreed upon what should have been done.
one thing that you are always very attentive to but never explicitly mention is regarding the headedness of formations -- generally in Lezhi, morphemes have different meanings whether they precede or follow formations. If placed before, the meaning is a verb; if placed after, the meaning is a noun.
rucha - restraint, restriction ~~ "whorllike limit" charu - fold ~~ "limitlike whorl"
digo - plane (location -- ie, physical plane) godi - stratum, level, floor (of a location)
Sometimes you will use a suffix which takes the role of an adverb.
bolatichi, latichi - compression, compressed ~~ "make narrow (v) thing (n), powerfully (adv)"
so, from here, you can start to define how combinations would be formed.
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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 10:39:24 GMT -5
Also here is an example of ambiguity (from Lezhi) which may arise in formation. This results from formations being "glued" together.
cha kifa ye ~~ "limit production affairs" (ie, quotas)
chaki faye ~~ "ending event/ceremony"
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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 10:47:00 GMT -5
This is a silly idea on my part but maybe the morphemes themselves could have markers on them to determine their semantic role.
For ex., extending the idea of "s" marking verbs.
chakifasye ~~ "cha (adj) kifas (v) ye (n)" ~~ "production quota"
chakisfaye ~~ chakis (v) faye (n) ~~ "ending ceremony"
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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 10:52:29 GMT -5
Going to the extreme (lespi suffixes)
chayzkifasyem ~~ cha+yz, kifa+s, ye+m
chakisfayem
So, you see, these markers can delineate boundaries between formations to lessen ambiguity.
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Post by polar principle on Sept 19, 2018 10:58:23 GMT -5
I'm sure something like that can help, they can be optional as well. Perhaps I'm just recreating Lespi but within a single word rather than a sentence, ahaha -- but since words have no spaces in them to delineate boundaries, such markers seem more important to embed within words than to mark sentence structure.
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Post by Bizz on Sept 19, 2018 15:13:26 GMT -5
I guess by stronghold I should have clarified I meant it in the way of interpretation. I swear there was a time when I wondered why you would pick this one word other another even when the Lezhi dictionary already has such a word. But I should have probably realized there isn't one way to interpret or make a word. But I see what you mean. Once I feel like it, I will maybe go back and add a few for things.
"one thing that you are always very attentive to but never explicitly mention is regarding the headedness of formations -- generally in Lezhi, morphemes have different meanings whether they precede or follow formations. If placed before, the meaning is a verb; if placed after, the meaning is a noun." Ah yes, you are very correct in every way. To tell you the truth, that sort of just happened naturally/subconsciously. You see, the original Earth Language is non-directional as its writing system aimed to create a simultaneous interpretation. Since I was using a Latinscript system words did have directionality and I had to choose which units should by each other on the fly and still have it "make sense". I guess I later on subconsciously imposed a more consistent version of the pattern.
Arguably, this haphazardness sort of goes against the so-prized for "consistency" but eh, it's really not that big of a deal and I guess now that I think about it that's actually a cool quirk.
"Also here is an example of ambiguity (from Lezhi) which may arise in formation. This results from formations being "glued" together." Okay now arguably this is something I should address. I also realized this quite a bit and added a "yan" fix in the adjectives section I believe but I knew that wasn't enough. I was eventually going to figure out how stress should have worked and hopefully that was going to be useful in potentially making some of these less ambiguous in some ways. Not that ambiguity is bad but stress could be a useful tool in straightening things out. Heck it could potentially be combined with your previous statement to help imply parts of speech too (Verb implies stressed since it goes before and noun implies unstressed since it goes last.)
The original plan was to use First Syllable stress. If there are multiple syllable words then the stresses should go on the original components used to make the word. Prefixes have a tendency to not get stress (Plural kö is still stressed regardless.), ...
If this seems unfinished then it is. This is because I started wondering what should the stress be and so I decided to go with my natural interpretation of the stress which has not been fully deciphered. Not to mention, How would people be able to tell how a word is made. Even I am confused by some of my constructions until I test them. Nashedö (Llama) is a recent example presenting a two interpretation ambiguity. You may assume it is Nashe+dö (Mountain+animal) but the original intention is Na+shedö (Feral camel) or even Na+she+dö (Feral bump animal). Even then Llamas are pretty known to live in mountain regions so that can definitely make things more peculiar.
Once again though, if I were to leave it up to other speakers, they would probably come up with their own stress. I imagine that they would naturally use it to distinguish words and soon patterns would probably arise. But yeah that is definitely something I should have said. "This is a silly idea on my part [...]" Oh no, that is a great idea. You see, if I kept working on Lezhi, I actually would have implemented that. In fact, even a Lezhi name employs the use of this. Kisska regularly uses this, especially with tun to nominalize verbs into a noun form meaning "action of VERB".
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Post by Bizz on Sept 20, 2018 6:01:47 GMT -5
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Post by polar principle on Sept 20, 2018 13:04:38 GMT -5
The cat and her kittens
The cat and her kittens They put on their mittens, To eat a Christmas pie. The poor little kittens They lost their mittens, And then they began to cry.
Kat na u botkati Dom kluposat* dom mankluni Heta Kristmas paupainsutbud** Lemonya la botkati Dom hatsaimat dom mankluni Na dista*** dom patat hokmisa.
* ~~ i could not find a preposition "on" -- but if we had one, you see how we have 'inpos' and 'auspos' for input and output -- I would make a similar word '___pos' for "onput". Other variants: 'manposat' ~~ "handput" 'klukosat' ~~ "make-clothes" 'inlepa' ~~ "inhabit"
** placeholder, should be simpler really
*** "and then they", also tried disya but there should be time ordering words like next, subsequently, following
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Post by polar principle on Sept 21, 2018 20:16:15 GMT -5
So yeah, I'm just going to take creative license with the undefined at the moment. classics.mit.edu/Plato/charmides.htmlAnd if we could find something which is at once greater than itself, and greater than other great things, but not greater than those things in comparison of which the others are greater, then that thing would have the property of being greater and also less than itself? Na kua wi kus*1 kias gatrokas nesia sak*2 so*3 has*4 in aitem*5 damit margla*6 sutusif, na damit margla hik dakinya*7 saki, gia ne damit margle dini saki, won rokglai*8 kic wa hik has damit mar, kua*9 das sak kus has sakkin ha damit mar na damit largla sutusif?1* The best way to translate this type of "would" and "could" is with a subjunctive indicator on "will" and "can" I believe. 2* nesia = some, sak = thing (abstract). Placeholder, unless you like that formation. 3* Presumed, I see nothing about relative pronouns. 4* I'm using this as an analog to yawes 5* 'in aitem' = at once, at the same time. 'glatem' is also possible but maybe more ambiguous. 6* more than 7* great, large 8* comparison. Though, I have no idea where the "relation" definition in Lezhi went. I find no definitions considering "relations" or "connection". 9* Then. I'm not sure how to do this in Lezhi either as Ku is just marked as "if...then".
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Post by Bizz on Sept 21, 2018 21:35:53 GMT -5
-Possibly I will make kua the subjunctive auxiliary verb and add kuo instead. -Nothing against nesia if it can work but ginsia is definitely more direct in this regard. -Yeah, haven't wrote the relative pronoun section yet but it sort of works like English where you reuse the question words and pronouns like "that" -Funny enough Kisska doesn't do the [Wes/Yawes = To be] thing in Lezhi. Just use to be. -In aitem should be An aitem. An functions as a gon/ten in Lezhi. Alternatively, Aitemya could be said. -Unfortunately I have not put a word for than yet. One idea I have currently is to reuse the words "uba/uda" Uba if the inequality is of a higher degree "over" the compared thing and Uda if lower. Ex. Danu seas mar da uba du. (He is bigger than you.) (Literally: He is more big over you.) -Kisska also does not adhere to Lezhi's noun vs adjective rule in comparisons. I will at some point explain comparisons in Kisska. -Dakinya is cool. -The relation concept will be added back soon. Perhaps I'll do it today and update the dictionary in about an hour from now. Idk.
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Post by Bizz on Oct 23, 2018 16:45:29 GMT -5
Making the date where I finally made a Beta script for Kisska. 10/23/2018 Sort of funny since Kisska (assuming the big Lezhi update is palatable to me) will not be in the limelight anymore. Regardless, I really wanted to finish the script. Besides it'll also be used for Skaina. (Basically a conlang based off of what I find aesthetically pleasing to hear and to pronounce with words that feel nice to me and some other subconscious stuff.) Here's an example if you are curious. Some are random Kisska words, Skaina words, Spanish words, and other gibberish. I'll post the key some time later in some days once I finished doing some tinkering.
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