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Post by polar principle on Feb 3, 2019 14:28:42 GMT -5
^ before sleep - ezra pound
https://www.reddit.com/r/conlangs/comments/ahikut/cognitive_metaphors/
these are interesting, btw. the mind naturally seems to associate the unrelated, so language can work as a regulatory mechanism for this; and it might be worth defining some official metaphors if you like.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 3, 2019 14:51:05 GMT -5
Interesting read. Kisska definitely has these in some latent form already so I should definitely write them out overtly which I'm already sort of doing in the background. This is essentially confirmed since Kisska is highly Earth Language based which definitely has its unique own brand of these cognitive metaphors.
A pretty interesting example is the word "Pan" (opening)
opening is public (open to the people) opening is vacant/cleared (an open space)
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 3, 2019 17:10:49 GMT -5
Some Kisska Update Notes:
So you'll notice something new. Basically I decided to distinguish every base in classic Lezhi fashion. Instead of using : | like Lezhi, a slash will be used instead.
Also you'll notice some Chinese characters by each base word. I decided to make an alternative optional logographic writing system for Kisska. Why you ask? Truly at its core, it's pretty much a why not kind of thing.
+
I've always been enamored with the concept of using these visual/semantic symbols to describe things with vastly different ways of pronunciation. It's pretty much what Japanese (Kanji), Korea (Hanja), and Vietnamese (Chu Nom) did. Despite the vast differences between these languages, you can still get a vague idea of what some words mean due to the stable state of character forms and the commonality of their symbols and culture. Sometimes words will use the exact set of characters as another language. Very nifty.
To me, a logography would be ideal for the thematic design that Kisska (and Lezhi) is going for because you can freely make an image that lines up with the meaning of word as opposed to abstract characters that only encode phonetic information. Such design would only further enforce the semantic transparency of its design now fronted up in visual form.
However, unfortunately, Logographies can take a while to learn. This was fairly okay in Lezhi since it only had like around, what, 130 base words? Not to mention a lot of the characters were simple to write, highly pictographic/ideographic in nature, and even borrowed some Chinese characters which could benefit those who already are very acquainted with the system like me. It was basically as difficult as learning Japanese Hiragana and a bit of Katakana. Hardly a challenge. Kisska on the otherhand is projected to exceed 500 base words. While it isn't as bad as the amount of characters you would need for Japanese/Chinese, I feel that many kills accessibility too much for my liking. And So, Kisska instead uses a simple abugida designed specifically for its syllable structure.
So, making a logographic system using existing characters that millions of speakers would already intuitively understand seems like a nice deal. Eventually I got to look into modifying a Chinese keyboard so that the inputs for base words correctly correspond with the character. This isn't really an important thing as it's just more bonus content so don't expect that anytime soon.
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Post by polar principle on Feb 3, 2019 22:59:31 GMT -5
i'll mention that with 500 base words, 500*500 = 250,000 = more than the amount of words in english by most estimates.
words for today:
vibration = wave shake = wifcik leap, jump (not necessarily up), twitch, jerk = sudden movement = coigas jump (up) = sudden up movement = coifugas leap, spring, rocket (from ground) = from earth movement = fenwesgas rocket (machine) = fenwescin caress = love touch = luptus underworld = udasegat undulant, flowy = tanwifya logogram = slatik
problem words:
pathetic, pitiful = can be lefumitya, but this is vague and if we had a word for "sorry" it would work better. Best option might be farmut, compare glamut (sympathy) solicitude, worry, anxiety, concern = gefacsar? sarnef? also... "soft" = gecon? tifkiya?
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 5, 2019 1:57:31 GMT -5
Eh, be aware, even if you are theoretically allowed to do 500*500, this doesn't account for useful/logical combinations. For example, you can't really put the main suffixes behind words except in the rare cases of saying something like "Ikin" (plural marker+ness). That alone can chop off one 499.
Regardless, I believe if I do my job right, that really should have been where Kisska stops. Some words right now sort of need some tinkering in order to be much more useful and retain the power from Lezhi's system. There's not really a true limit though but a soft one based off of some idea of optimization.
Wifcik is good.
The most recent version actually has a base word called "spoi" meaning jump/skip/dive at its core.
Fenwesgana and Fenwescin seem good. Luptus is very nice. Vaguely sounds like "lovingly touch" in English. Udasegat is obviously good. Tanwifya is good. Slatik is good.
Yeah, unfortunately the "emotion/feeling" section hasn't been fully and properly implemented yet. At some point I'm going to need to do some reanalysis of the patterns in the original Earth Language. Who knows, I may also ask for a second opinion because it's not the easiest section to decipher.
If I were to be forced on the spot however, I would possibly choose "dorokya" (do here refers to dishonorable/not exalted/poor and the rok refers to how one is recognized as. Thus being recognized as being in a lowly state.) In other words, you sort of got it but in the opposite way ahaha.
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Post by polar principle on Feb 5, 2019 16:44:50 GMT -5
Dorokya is ok, but it's difficult to distinguish with scorn, scoff, disdain because there is no "sorrow" concept at the moment. So I'd say Dorok = scorn, scoff Dorokya = abominable, despicable Dorokmut = disdain.
You may consider a new root to incorporate the sorrow aspect. I was thinking ses or sen:
Ses/ | N: sorrow, mourning (general) seses = existential despair, anguish (philosophical) sesmut = sadness sessol = forgiveness smises = anguish brisses = wrath, acrimony batses = regret ditses = mourning (+ ditgat = graveyard, kufgat = tomb, kuftik = gravetone, kockufgat = sepulchre, ubakufgat = grave) doses = pity, dosesya = pitiful, pathetic facses = consolation hikses = sorry, to be/feel sorry for neses = boredom saimses = grief sapses = condolences siases = ennui.
I like the newly added "wild" root as well, that can certainly have an official metaphor:
binsar = concern brisgumut = ecstasy brissar = anxiety hikbrissar = worry brissnesar = nervousness (+ snesko = nervous system, snemek = electrical grid, snemek = circuit.)
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 5, 2019 17:09:06 GMT -5
Very excellent. This is all very nice and intuitive. This is very much how I like these words to work.
Feel free to suggest any future adjustments or additions to related sections. Stuff like whether there should be a base word anger and hate/dislike. Or maybe digust should have its own base word over using Wassma ("bad flavor") to make way for clearer variations that are fairly shortish.
If you wish to have a bit more insight into what we're dealing with, here's this "heart" or psychological section you could look into:
I don't intend to copy the same system but rather to create words that conform to the semantics in a way that becomes a bit more clear in how the formation came to be.
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Post by polar principle on Feb 5, 2019 23:51:10 GMT -5
i think the morphemes should be as universal as possible, yet retain meaning. disgust seems overly particular as a base word, maybe see if you like the following:
Med/ N: severity, graveness Baimed = anger Besmed = authoritarian, tyranny Coimed = revulsion, disgust (general) Dismed = foreboding Farmed = contrast Fenmoimed = disgust (food) Medbis = visceral Medhain = abhorrence, loathing Medrok = suspicion, wariness; Soprok = fondness, partiality Medpu = dislike, Soppu = like Mutmed = grim Notmed = dearth Pecmed = judgement Raimed = sternness Sarmed = harshness, cruelty Smimed = torture, torment Sotmed = brutality Topmed = dogma
~~misc unrelated~~ spisbriskin = entropy sainfan = repelling, to repel
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Post by polar principle on Feb 6, 2019 1:07:56 GMT -5
Broken words:
It's ambiguous whether they're buildings-becoming-pieces or baths-becoming-inward anyway, haha.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 6, 2019 12:28:04 GMT -5
As said before, at least for the Kisska Romanization, you may need to place apostrophes to visually distinguish words if necessary.
Bau'sinyen Baus'inyen
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 6, 2019 12:44:09 GMT -5
Also I guess I didn't really properly convey my example well so you should completely disregard it. My main point was that Kisska as of now is all about decisions on efficiency without being too constraining or using too many words. Personally I'd side with "excessive words" because at the very least you get more expression.
And then, when it comes to the emotion system, I was indirectly hinting at what base words you would make to fill in the gaps to balance out things. Or how you may design the ground floor for expressing these things. For example, I was planning to eventually add a word meaning "anger" and have it recreate the word hate because I feel it would be weird to have anger and hate specifically because that feels a little excessive in the wrong way. This is what I refer to as balance. If a word is put in, then it affects what other words are put in and how they should be put in.
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Post by polar principle on Feb 6, 2019 14:32:34 GMT -5
i don't think morphemes for both anger and hate would be excessive, as we already have sol, sop, lup, gu for positive emotions, which means that's four to balance out.
considering the emotion system, and the earth language system, my take on the encapsulation of human internal life would be as so:
spiritual (gais, spis) > transcendent, religious, conceptual
consciousness (rok) > perception, intuition, recognition
temperament (kin, ???) > personality, character, sum of experience
mercy (sol, sop, lup, gu) > harmony, love, compassion
severity (???, ???, ???, was) > antipathy, war and hate, anger
will (wis, wais) > concentration, desire, fixation
mind (cai, sar) > sensibility, reason, skepticism
emotion (mut, sar) > creativity, ideation, imagination
energy, movement (gan, fos) > vitality, passion, courage
sense (ske, bis) > the senses, sensuality, impressions
i think that these concepts combined with metaphors from other morphemes should be more than enough to create mostly any internal human concept.
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Post by polar principle on Feb 6, 2019 14:39:30 GMT -5
AU VIEUX JARDIN (from "des imagistes": www.gutenberg.org/files/50782/50782-h/50782-h.htm ) I have sat here happy in the gardens, Watching the still pool and the reeds And the dark clouds Which the wind of the upper air Tore like the green leafy boughs Of the divers-hued trees of late summer;Mi has cita andin sop in dimgati, Konbisas negan tifmis na fureswigi Ni nelusya suehori Das fui di fuya luf Fesgepat sea dim tesfuesuoya bestesrami Di defar-hiulus tumi di saim sunspas; But though I greatly delight In these and the water lilies That which sets me nighest to weeping Is the rose and white colour of the smooth flag-stones And the pale yellow grasses Among them.Gia duma mi daya sopmutas In dini na mis floalum Sak das sarganas mi mas let ta sesmisa Sea taryenya na hui hiu di nenefya feskoci Na mekhiuya gos resi Sufa isu. --- dimgat = verdant place = garden tifmis = pool (general) fureswig = tall grass rod = reed tesfuesuo = leaf, tesfue = photosynthesis bestesram = main branch = bough hiulus = hue sopmut = joy, mirth, delight floalum = floating flower = lily (colloquial) sesmisa = to weep feskoc = flagstone, slab
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Post by polar principle on Feb 6, 2019 15:02:25 GMT -5
there's a way in which it doesn't really matter what the morphemes are, as long as the concepts exist -- just filling in the question marks in my system: severity, sorrow, hate -- or anger, sorrow, hate -- would be perfectly expressive. maybe even add pride. i do think the language lacks a sort of hard-hitting grimdark visceral emotive word which is why i created med. for practice try translating: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sinsen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_hindrances
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Post by polar principle on Feb 6, 2019 18:11:08 GMT -5
i can't find it now, but some of this reminds me of your old "YUGH!!!!!" language. morphemes that carry raw emotive content.
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