Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 6, 2019 20:24:54 GMT -5
>i don't think morphemes for both anger and hate would be excessive, as we already have sol, sop, lup, gu for positive emotions, which means that's four to balance out. Aha, touché. >[...] i think that these concepts combined with metaphors from other morphemes should be more than enough to create mostly any internal human concept. While I did consider reusing some words beyond the "sar/mut/kin" categories, I never fully considered reusing something like gan/fos for the emotional things beyond some specific combinations such as Sargan/Sarfos. This definitely shows I'm not giving some words enough credit. >i do think the language lacks a sort of hard-hitting grimdark visceral emotive word which is why i created med. Heh, funny you bring that up. This reminds me of when I made something like that in Lezhi by combined the words for zi "bad, evil, disadvantage, removal, leaving, etc.." and jö "diagonal, tilt, bend, off, strange" to be used for swear words backed off of the eldritch vibe evoked from the word combination. Med is pretty great though and reminds me of how unique a word like "Lai".
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In a nutshell, I can see I have made some logical errors and I appreciate you keeping me in check; I really don't want a repeat of Abigeno. I guess I really need to formally write how each word works better so it doesn't feel as "vague" I guess.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 6, 2019 20:55:25 GMT -5
Found the UHRGH language thing: nethood.boards.net/thread/793/introducing-uhrgh-language?page=1For the record I made that as a joke when I was very tired or something. I like my hilarious example scenario though, reminds me vaguely of how Toki Pona works sometimes but more so how one of my jokelang/jokeconcultures used to work before the "meme collapse" happened where they would respond with words that encompassed entire phrases and functioned as interjections to express something contextually. Either that or the "sound effect" language where I write down sound effects I didn't immediately realize I made which sort of functions on a similar principle since usually there isn't a sound effect that indicates a pronoun... yet.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 8, 2019 11:31:32 GMT -5
-Changed pu to pi. Sounds better that way. -Made it so that h can now also be pronounced as /x/.
I will update in like 11 hours I think? No clue.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 16, 2019 3:18:54 GMT -5
Changelist from 2/15 to ...
We (left) > Hi Din (this) > Sim
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Post by not_x on Feb 20, 2019 23:02:27 GMT -5
a dream: bizz changed the language so that the word break (sinkos) could also mean analysis, examination, consistency; so the "break" of a thing is its analysis. later someone ridiculed him for introducing this stupid feature into the language, but i defended the feature.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 22, 2019 4:45:07 GMT -5
Recently I've been mostly focused around potential re-designs and comparing their advanatages and weaknesses. It's very interesting to see that there's some kind of Pareto efficiency curve (love that concept btw) in terms of strengths and weaknesses as it just comes down to preferences in design. Ultimately so far, the default Kisska model is here to stay but here's two draft ideas I came up with.
NEW LEZHI DRAFT:
One thing that bothers me about Kisska but isn't ultimately a deal breaker is the lack of syllable symmetry between nouns/verbs and weird extra conjugation rules regarding words with vowel endings. Kisska is also not very compact and any deviation compared to Lezhi is multisyllabic. This is why you'll notice all deviation suffixes are very quick and easy to say according to frequency. -ya (adj/adv), -a (verb), -nu (preposition, once it's added), -das (conjunction).
Lezhi's compactness makes for a nice thematic bundling which I very much like but the main thing holding it back was the lack of transparency in deviation semantics. My first attempt to offset this was to create the "collapsing" system whereas two adjacent words would be written as one character and the whole word would be pronounced only as the first syllable. This would help prevent the need for adding more deviation semantics onto the existing base words which would make them more unpredictable in terms of their deviated definition. Pa is a good example of this. Classically has held concepts like "open, starting, spreading, cleanliness, clearness, laughter" but meanings of "alchoholic" was added soon after. With the new collapsing system, Pa should only really mean open as you can now collapse the corresponding words and retain a low amount of syllables while also being clear in terms of what you mean when you deviate words.
Pa open, Pa(ye) start, Pa(ga) spread, Pa(di) clean/clear Pa(bö) laughter, Pa(yo) Alcohol.
This design can be cool because all of these shortenings conveniently allude back to the base concept enforcing a kind of phonetic-visual thematic almost forming a class of its own.
But I improved this by making one simple change. Basically instead of being constrained to hard limit of roughly 140 base words. Instead, there is a soft limit like Kisska where words can just be made for whatever. And instead of the collapsing system, instead every word no matter the original amount of syllables can always be said as only its first syllable.
Basically we just combined the word making logic of Kisska with the compact design and a modified version of the collapsing system in Lezhi. So what are the upsides?
Advantages:
-Phonotactics are much simpler than Kisska's and would end up being much more internationally friendly (This is a bit moot because I mainly intend an English audience in the hypothetical sharing scenario but is a nice plus regardless.) -Allophonic environments are much simpler. -Deviation semantics are fairly transparent. -Shortening system basically functions as a systematized abbreviation system which is used to keep words short so that making word deviations don't become to too long. The system essentially matches Kisska's average syllable as it constantly producing one syllable words. -Words are compact -Avoids the destructive collocation design that the collapsing system had. What I mean is that classical Lezhi design had special word deviation slots that was highly metaphor/collocation based. If a slot was taken, it can end up preventing other interpretations, even logically consistent ones from being formed due to the weight/pull of association. This isn't that big a deal but it can feel weird as times if the collocation's base words wouldn't make much sense on a semantic level. -
Disadvantages:
-Root word recognizability is awful and would require a complex syllablary or logography to be clear. Worse than Kisska actually. (This isn't really that much of an argument but I thought I should post it) -This design still doesn't solve the shorten-based homophones producing ironic/confusing meanings due to being in a similar class. Ex. Tsuru to kill, Tsu(ru) sound like the word life which is Tsu. Payo alcohol, Pa(vi)yo(ya) is the word for coffee.
Once again, this isn't the worse thing in the world. Due to the free word making system, I'd imagine one could just make a new word or rely off of Kisska's current shortening scheme which is to use the head word based off of its semantics. And obviously there's context to dismabiguate and the full saying of the word. Still, I feel the weight of the word association may get in the way and create a system of choosiness forcing you to say something one way because of unfortunate implications. But once again, I don't think it would be that bad overall. It just personally feels weird to me.
I personally feel this is probably the true best design, even better than Kisska. However, I'm going to go with it due to preferences as I find the shortening system weird. At least in Kisska, when you shorten words, the meaning is retained and sometimes can end up meaning the same as the original full version of the word which feels a bit better than phonetic shortening. In other words, I like that the shortening actively works with the semantics of the word to still impart what you mean to say.
NOUNVERB DESIGN:
So I was like, okay, maybe we can somehow fix the noun/verb inequality by straight up merging them as one concept. So I went on a journey to study mainly two languages and a third one. The first one was Pkalho-Kölo (https://old.reddit.com/r/conlangs/search?q=Pkalho-K%C3%B6lo&restrict_sr=on) an amazingly unique conlang in terms of grammatical design and amazing efficiency with its suffix design. Then Lojban and then Ithkuil.
One thing these had in common were that they all blurred the line between noun/verb and other parts of speech and regarded such distinctions as unimportant.
The end result was definitely not as impactful as the NEW LEZHI design as it simply redistributed syllable length of nouns/verbs but in a more dynamic way highly based off of context and syntactical positioning.
Basically the idea was to merge all nouns/verbs together. This wouldn't be too weird because Kisska notably has a lot of verbal nouns that translate as gerunds in English. It's almost as if the two should be together as one Nounverb.
Basically these nounverbs both possess noun and verb definitions and can be used as such. So how does one distinguish between the two? Without any overt marking or some other lexical tool, there is simply no way and is left up to context. But there are some methods.
Adpositions are the main way of indicating the noun of something. Verbs already turn into gerunds when forced into prepositions in various European languages (unless re-using the infinitive form doesn't count) so this is a already a simple way to indicate the subject and object or more clearly, who was affected by the action and who wasn't.
Using adjectives would clearly indicate a noun and using an adverb would clearly indicate a verb. Adverbs would most likely get their own suffix in this system to compensate for the lack of overt verb marking.
Finally there some special optional conjugations. The Stative conjugation and the Dynamic conjugation. Stative is used to express a current state that something is in very akin to static adjectives or saying that you're wearing a shirt. Dynamic expresses a change in state into something or from something. It sounds vaguely like "to become/to get" or saying that you're getting dressed with a shirt. This imply verb on default but still can be gerundized by the aforementioned methods to indicate a noun.
While this more or less gets what I want, I find it a bit too alien for me. Once again, I refer to the Pareto efficiency curve and realize that it honestly comes down to preference. Thus, I will continue working on Kisska in its current state. Sure, it has its issues but most issues aren't really a deal-breaker for me. Kisska feels the most transparent to me and doesn't use any weird gimmicks to offset syllables. Words are what they present themselves to be without needing any context or being phonetically affected in any way. The grammar is very European and very approachable without needing to use much thought if you come from a European speaking background.
I will admit though, it is a shame that these other systems won't be used. It would have really given Kisska a very unique design edge as these ideas are really cool. Dynamic word shortening especially seemed pretty fun.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 23, 2019 8:15:43 GMT -5
Documentation of the word Kof (cross)
-Used to refer to the cross shape/object -Used to refer to the plus/x shape. There are more specific words for each. -Used to refer to the motion of crossing or intersecting something -Used to refer to overlapping/stacking. It's as if something "crosses over" something. -Used to refer to multiplication. This is actually in reference to two things, the multiplication symbol and/or the multiplication table where when numbers "cross" each other on the table, that leads to their final product. -Used as a -tuple former. (single, double, triple, multiple, etc.) -Used to refer to Christianity or Christian things -Used to refer to hybridization/cross-breeding
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 26, 2019 4:49:49 GMT -5
General Design Ideology of Kisska (and Lezhi in some ways) (This need some rewriting lol):
-Despite the heavy level of systematization in Kisska thus granting it the term "systematic conlang", it's also mainly an artlang. It also is not attempting to be something like Itkuil. I prefer enough systematization to reduce complexity in understanding and applying patterns as opposed to absolutely no ambiguity. Very huge difference there.
-The semantics of words should be systematized so that more predictable patterns are formed which would make guessing newly deviated words more predictable and the language should be easier or faster to learn as well as well as more stable over time. The main method of systematization is to narrow the deviational meanings of the words and/or treat them as functions in some way.
-There shouldn't be excessive affixes or conjugations if such concepts can be already be expressed via the semantics of the word. For example, there is no point in having a hydro- prefix if reusing the word water in an attributive fashion would suffice.
-One should usually always turn to lexical means or the very semantics of the word in order to express what normally could be done via arbitrary affixation/conjugations forms. I find that these methods are redundant, add extra and pointless complexity and are much less dynamic since the forms can not be its own stand-alone concept which can freely combine with other words. This also alludes back to words being used like a function.
While affixation is heavily used in Kisska, it's really just nouns being used attributively or word compounding. I just called them prefixes/suffixes just to make it easier to grasp for those starting out without needing to think about the system at large.
-The rightmost portion of a word should be a the head or main word and it should indicate a kind/type/variation of class it belongs to. If the head word is a dog, then generally it should be a dog of some kind whether literally or metaphorically. In this way, the head word acts as a kind of classification.
-Designing everything head-last allows for a simple systematization of slanging/shortening within the language driven by semantics. Systematizing shortening is important because it helps increase predictability in the dynamic or contextual usage of words when shortened.
-Base words should generally have a focused central meaning in the midst of its semantic cluster but there should generally be a lot of overlap between all words. This mainly circumvents the problem of being forced to use only one word to describe a concept due to Kisska's soft word limit. (Soft word limit means that while there is limit to the amount of words one can make, one should still be efficient in what words do get chosen to be the base word which make all other words.)
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Feb 27, 2019 18:35:07 GMT -5
Kisska Beta Plans
-Create the word checklist and the explanation for the semantics/functions/associations for each word. -fix the -tun inconsistencies (ex. Baustun should be action of bath machine and not bathing. That should derive from the verb) -Conjugation should be reduced to only two forms. -as (active infinitive) and -is (passive infinitive) Instead, tense would be indicated by prefixing nis(present/now)/bat(past)/dic(future) -If there's a dictionary reset, consider alphabetizing the parts of speech listing. -Attempt to straighten out and organize the transitivity of verbs. See if all verbs can feasibly have a default transitivity setting. -Possibly create a new word type or a new type of word interaction to facilitate the bat/dic/nis + verb to remove the need for -as/-is conjugations.
-Merge house/building? (should it also mean establishment to include nature+building = camp) -Merge eye/see -Merge foot/step -Merge leg/walk/run -Merge fire/burning -Merge ice/freezing -Convert bai into noun
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Mar 1, 2019 6:20:50 GMT -5
Alright, so I don't expect you to respond or even see this, and that's fine. But eh, I think it's worth a shot.
I'd like you to give me your general opinion on words you would add, what words you would remove, what words would you change, and any other sort of ideas or directions that you have concerning the language. Criticize my ideology too if you want.
That is all.
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Post by not_x on Mar 1, 2019 20:21:01 GMT -5
anyone could nitpick but to be overarching,
1. i would focus on "unpacking" the english language. each english word is a bundle of cultural associations and constituent concepts; i've heard someone say that words are "pre-chewed" thoughts. so: it's like surgery, all that is implicit, all a word's innards, should be picked-apart, deconstructed. extracting concepts from these bundles is like mining -- i'd like to think of each morpheme as a pure essence, something that can be thrown into a cauldron.
(i've often heard it said in conspiracy corners [building on the english-is-a-conlang idea] that you "spell" words because they are truly spells, it's linguistic overhead -- invocations with effects upon our nervous systems -- in the same way that computer programs are on a computer, actually.)
2. morphemes should aim to be cross-domain, conceptual but not vague, arousing clear metaphor.
to apply these design principles to the morpheme "baus" ~ i sense a dipole, because "bath" and "toilet" are tied together culturally but not conceptually. i'd like to use "sarbaus" for immersion, for example, but the toilet connotations are distracting. here's my restructure, get rid of the morphemes "pee" and "poop" as well:
immersion/ (this morpheme can be a metonym for bath) immersion + washing (new morpheme to replace pee/poop) = bath depression + immersion = pool (for swimming, recreation) immersion + art/sport = swimming/diving "sar" + immersion = immersion (language, culture, ideas, etc) "cai" + immersion = contemplation, deep thought severity + immersion = indoctrination sorrow + immersion = pity party (words for pool, shower, sauna, sunbath, etc remain the same)
excretion/toilet excretion + thing = poop, feces excretion + liquid = pee, urine excretion + gas = fart excretion + skin/water = sweating/perspiration excretion + fire = incineration
washing -> absolution, purification, rinsing, laundry ...
see also how some morphemes point implicitly to domains, i think there is strength in this.
anyway, i'll be looking over your language in the future.
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Post by not_x on Mar 1, 2019 20:42:28 GMT -5
+
maybe there could be a division between "morphemes for conversation" and "technical words"
for bathroom i like rest + room.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Mar 2, 2019 1:45:41 GMT -5
Interesting. I definitely see this as a logical and useful direction to go in.
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Extra tidbit concerning the "Baus" word. I actually did botch the implementation of this word. It was meant to be "water facility" hence why the word "fountain" also used it despite not being something you would bathe in. Wonder how that word will be recreated now ahaha. Although I'm pretty sure there's something already.
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Bizz
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Post by Bizz on Mar 3, 2019 16:58:41 GMT -5
Added Paf (Performance)
Paf | -Means performance (like a show/play) -Used to form words relating with performances/shows -Used with words to form a performance/show version of the word -Used to express poetic/artistic/legendary intent upon a word
Added Ses (sorrow), Med (severity)
Converted Baus (bath machine) into Baus (immersion) (Definitely like the immersion word. It also cleared up the conflicting noun/verb split making it a simpler word to use.)
Added Kem (Excretion) and collapsed various words into it.
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Post by polar principle on Mar 18, 2019 1:12:31 GMT -5
Human Emotions in Kisska, pt. 1 Acceptance - Sol Affection - Lupmut (Loving vibe) Resentment / Anger - Nefmut (Frictional vibe) / Sarfet (Mental heat) Wrath / Fury - Baimed (Violent graveness) / Brismed (Wild severity) Angst - Sedos (Existential fear) Anguish - Seses (Existential sorrow) Annoyance - Nefpain (Frictional impression) Anticipation / Expectation - Discadwis ("Forehoping") Discai ("Foreconsidering") Apprehension - Disdos ("Forefearing") Anxiety - Sargefac (Mental disturbance/uneasiness) Apathy - Sarfenbin (Mental concern evasion) Arousal - Wafske (Waking senses) Awe - Dabaus (Greatness immersion) Boredom - Neskemut (Lack of stimuli vibe) Pride - Kisop (Ability happiness) Detestation / Contempt - Hainmut / Hainmed Contentment - Tocmut (Completion vibe) Satisfaction - Tocsop (Completion happiness) Courage - Dosget (Fear opposition) Curiosity - Rokwis (Recognition desire) Depression - Tifmut / Saukses (Remaining sorrow) Desire - Wis Despair - Nekises (No ability sorrow) Disappointment - Gepanses (Against opening sorrow) Disgust - Coimed (Shock severity) Distrust - Sufamedrok (Suspicion amongst people) Embarrassment - Gesifwet (Opposition to one's pride) Empathy - Mutbis (Emotional sight)
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